Sunday, July 6, 2008

My Gay Thoughts

No you didn't read that wrong. I'm here to expound a little on thoughts I was entertaining as I read news on the whole political hullabaloo that has been playing out in our Malaysian circus. You know, the whole Anwar being accused of sodomy kind of thing. But, like most other bloggers, I'm quite resigned to blogging about the political viewpoint of the matters; it's just so darn confusing at this stage.

And no, I don't literally mean 'gay thoughts', but rather a few thoughts about the homosexual movement as a whole.

It just struck me as I was reading some opinions about the allegations against Anwar. Some of the more eloquent and thought-provoking writers offered their opinions on the matter, and it pretty much went like, 'Hey, we're really not interested in whether or not Anwar did sodomize the poor chap. Considering that he was a 23 year old lad, probably at the peak of his youth and vitality, and that Anwar was 60+ and had a bad back, it must have been an act of mutual consent, and we're not at all interested in what two consenting adults choose to do in the privacy of wherever. We're only interested if it involves embezzlement of the public funds, and etc etc...'.

Or even things like, 'Malaysia is homophobic for the reason that sodomy (a homosexual act) is criminalized'. Or something to that effect.

Now, note the two main criterion most people offer for an action to be justifiable morally. One, they're adults, and thus fully able to comprehend their decisions and the ramifications of their decisions.

Two, it involves two consenting adults, and from a post-modernist point of view, that would equate to 'We're just doing our thing, and it's not hurting anyone, so just let us be!'.

Well, alright. It seems to be the perception of most people that if its done by two consenting adults, just about anything is fine.

Well, then, I was just thinking to myself about what these very same people would say to a case of incest. Yes, incest, some totally whacked sexual relationship between two people in a family. After all, it does involve two very consenting adults. So if we're really all that keen on allowing people to run around being gay, I really have to ask, why not let a father marry his own daughter? Or better still, let a grandma marry her grandson, or great great grandson, or whatever you fancy?

And doesn't incest just strike you as wrong? Why then, do you ask yourself, is incest so wrong? What, it's not natural? But oh, I never really thought homosexuality was natural either. I might be wrong and my view on things might be totally distorted because I'm a closed-minded person and a Christian of all things (oh no, it's another one!); but after all, it's just my personal take on things.

You know, the thing is, I believe this whole being 'open-minded' is a farce when it comes to homosexuality. There is no real open-mindedness. Everyone is just plain selfish (I'm not absolving myself either). I think most (I'm not saying all, mind you) proponents of homosexuality are themselves closed-minded because they refuse to acknowledge that the grounds on which they justify their claims for validity are the very same grounds that can be used for a lot of other things, which would probably tickle their moral conscience as well. So really, when you refuse to acknowledge that, then it's a mockery in itself of this 'open-mindedness' that we should have.

Of course, if you could still say, 'oh yeah, sure, incest is totally fine with me', then my argument would totally fall and I'd really have nothing else to say. I'd just go home, brood over it and seriously think that our moral state of affairs is in VERY, VERY deep peanut butter (it's the best substitute I could think of to represent something brown and mushy).

And oh, don't even go to there. Where? The, 'Oh, you're another closed-minded Christian and so your arguments are so 1940. We live in the modern age! Your old school rules are no longer relevant!'.

Seriously, -.-''

One, by calling someone closed-minded, you're already refusing to accept whatever views the other has to share, regardless of its validity and rationale.

Two, how do you really know if we're 'closed-minded'? Don't you think that in this age of thinking, we (the C-dudes) would have examined and re-examined our values and asked ourselves if this is really what we believe in?

Honestly, I fall waaaaaaaaay away from the standard of what I dare to call a 'good' Christian, but even I have my core values, which I've asked myself if they were worth protecting, and come to a resounding 'yes'. And of course we've all thought about homosexuality and whether or not it was right or wrong based on both divine standards as well as on modern standards. Well, there are some people who couldn't be bothered about forming a personal opinion, but I think they're just dumb and so they don't come into the equation here.

And look, you know that highly-touted value of being able to speak up for what you believe in? A great majority of people think its great that gays and gay-like people are able to brave ridicule and sum up the courage to tell everyone they're really gay, or stuff. They think its absolutely great that they have the courage to speak up for what they believe in and all that. Well, well, newsflash, that's EXACTLY what I'm trying to do. I'm speaking up for what I believe in, whether it irks people or not.

I could probably think of a few more things to say, but I think this post is controversial enough as it is. I'm expecting backlash from some human rights group in Amsterdam or somewhere, but it's alright. I really hope this prompts everyone to actually think. If you have a nit to pick with me, then fine, but go take some time to think about it, then type it out in a readable manner. Then, we'll sit down for tea and chat.

Lastly, peace out, yo.

:) Jonathan

19 comments:

Anonymous said...

I bet you're expecting a reply from your local practicing homosexual aren't you? So here it is.

Here is my two cents of what's right and what's wrong.

Ever since I came over to Canada and volunteered in a few organizations, I've really met a whole variety of people, which got me to do a lot of thinking.

Truth be told, (i probably didn't tell you this), but when I first entertained the idea that I was gay, I really did feel "unnatural" and "wrong". Which lead to my "blasphemy", which you were probably very familiar with. My idea was that "if You can't accept me, why must I accept you?"

But really, after meeting all these different individuals, and doing a whole lot of thinking, I got quite confused on what's "right" and what's "wrong". And for Christians, the bible isn't really much solid help is it? I mean a few lines below "homosexuality is an abomination", you would read "eating swine is an abomination".

Incest, for example, society sees as unnatural. But then if you consider individual cases, you'd see a father/mother and a daughter/son or even brothers/sisters, loving each other so intently; so much that they want to get married. And when I look at this "pure" love that is involved, I can hardly convince myself that it is in fact "wrong".

And then I realized that saying that "something" is wrong, is simply too simplistic isn't it. I mean when you say "murder" is wrong, you assume that there is nothing else to it. You don't consider cases where a father kills a man trying to rape his daughter, and so forth.

And that's perhaps why I couldn't find my answer in the bible on what's right and what's wrong, because maybe human beings cannot possibly know what's "right" and "wrong".

I'm gay, but part of that entails more love for my parents because I see how much they love me through accepting my homosexuality. Part of it entails that I am probably going to adopt some abandoned child that I would not have if I were straight.

And at the end of all this, I go "what the hell, if I can't have an answer for sure on what's right and what's wrong, I think it would be better if I stop judging others' action and labeling them" But if asked, "what is right for you and what is wrong for you".

I guess for me, as long as I do it out of "love", (which is the purest form of emotion in my opinion), it should be fine.

So if I really "love" this guy, as in "I wouldn't mind spending my life with you and only you", "I want you to be happy, and I want to be the one capable of making you happy", and bloody hell, you know how it's like; I can't possibly conceive that such a thing can be "wrong".

But then again, that's just my conscience. Everybody has a different conscience, and I believe that there is no one conscience that is better than another.

Well how does God fit into this entire picture for me? I think he really loves all of us, like really "love", not "I love you but I think you should not do this," but "I love you, and only want you to be TRULY happy. I think you shouldn't kill that man who made you angry because you're not going to be very happy in the future living with that guilt. But if you do, I am going to still try my best to help you be happy by maybe helping you overcome this guilt."

That's the perfect God that I can conceive of. Note: "that I can conceive of" so I am not saying that this is THE God but my God that will guide me through my life. I really don't care if it's THE God, because if I care too much about going to Heaven and Hell, instead of valuing the present, I don't think I would have a very "happy" life. I remember Jesus did say somewhere that "THIS (earth) is Heaven, right here."

So yeah, if I volunteer as a tutor, I don't do it because I think it's a good deed and it'll help me go to Heaven, but because it really makes me feel happy being able to teach and pass on something that my previous teachers have passed on to me.

And I would love a guy, without being afraid of going to hell, because right here, when I am alive, I am happy, it's my Heaven. Perhaps that is what Jesus meant, "make this your Heaven, and if you believe in God, you'd go to Heaven because if you listen to him, he'd help steer you to true happiness."

I think I've said too much..

Disclaimer: the expresses opinions apply to me and maybe only me. Which means I am not saying that my opinions nor my conscience, is better than anyone else's.

Bryan Samuel Matthews Tai Yi Siang,
and for those who still do not know that I'm gay.. SURPRISE! lol..

jonmah said...

oh yeah, i must admit i was expecting a response from our 'local practicing homosexual'. Look, the point of the article was not to marginalize the gay community. It was more to point out the double standards involved about being 'open-minded' and such things.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your views. I must say I disagree with somethings you said la, but we're all entitled to our opinions, and I really must catch up with you sometime so we'll chat then.

Oh btw, no where (as far as I know) does it say in the Bible 'this is your heaven' or whatever. But understand this, I'm not judging you. You're still my friend, my good bud, regardless of alot of things. We've been through alot, i'm sure you'd remember. Some of what I said was stupid, but let's put all that behind us.

And honestly, you don't realize this but the Christian community is by no means supposed to hold prejudices against anyone, much less homosexuals or whoever. Everyone (including us supposedly holy dudes) are sinners, and thus equals in the sight of the Lord.

Just my RM2.70 here, I hope it clears the air a little.

:)

Anonymous said...

"And honestly, you don't realize this but the Christian community is by no means supposed to hold prejudices against anyone, much less homosexuals or whoever."

HAHAHA.. I guess the general Christian community didn't convey that virtue very well, did it? Lol..

Just joking. The LGBTQ@UTSC club (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Queer club from campus) had this joint even with the Varsity Christian Fellowship where we played the movie "for the bible tells us so" and we really had a very nice discussion after that.

So give me some credit alright. I don't really hold that much "prejudice" on the general Christian society....

jonmah said...

well, we're not supposed to, but you know how people are most of the time.

glad you see that though.

Anonymous said...

Oh oh, and let me clarify my intentions why I wrote that entire long sappy "essay" instead of just sending you an email about it.

So any individual who is struggling with sexuality and religion, and who happens to come across this blog, if you're seeking help with regard to your problems, please feel free to contact me at bryan_samuel90@hotmail.com. I can refer you to individuals who have been trained in this area and can offer valuable help and advice.

And trust me, there are a lot of "gay christians" out there, so I hope I have conveyed the idea that religion and sexuality do not need to be mutually exclusive.

Anonymous said...

Yi Siang is gay??? Tell me he is kidding

Yi Siang said...

Oh, I just realized that I could post under my name. So the first three anonymous posts are by me. :)

And to the forth anonymous poster, yes I am "gay" according to the definition drew out by society. I am curious as to who you are though.

Cheers.

jonmah said...

hmm, seems like I've generated enough controversy as it is. Like I said, I don't agree with somethings you said, but I don't intend to turn this into a discussion forum anytime soon.

That said though, I don't really want to discourage the discussion. So hmm, I'm at a loss really.

Uh, email me?

Yi Siang said...

It's actually not much of the discussion that I am interested in. Personally I think that there is really no "right" or "wrong" opinion, so I am not attempting to change your point of view. You can still email me if you want to though.

But your post out there, have you thought that if one of your Christian friends were lgbtq-identified. How would he/she/it feel after reading your post?

Even though you had no intentions of persecution, you know that persecution can be done inadvertently.

Anyway, my last words are, to all those of you struggling with your gender identity, sexual identity or sexuality, do not let the persecution drive you insane like what it did to a lot of us.

Again, if you want to, email me anonymously, I can refer you to individuals who have been trained in equity that can offer valuable advice on how to embrace yourself and live a life. If Malaysia really isn't the right place for you due to overwhelming amounts of persecution, who knows, you might even attain refugee status in some other countries that would embrace you.

Yes, general society can be pretty mean most of the times, but know that you're not alone, and there is a whole community more than fain to embrace you.

All the best!

Mark Teen said...

I am the other anonymous. I didn't put my real name because I was half asleep reading through the post and the comments, so I don't want to pai seh and find out later that I misread.

Are you really gay or are you just being liberal-minded, accepting gays. How does the society define gay? Being in a gay relationship? Have attractions to the same sex?

So, when did you start? I mean like, have you always had attractions towards guy, or it's a self-induced thing?

I have yet to read through Jon's post and the comments properly, I am sure I have things to say after reading it thoroughly.

Yi Siang said...

Hi Mark, how are you? Heard you're going to IMU with Wei June, all the best!

Lol, I am sorry Jon.. this is kind of turning into a discussion thread.

But I thought it would be really educational - demystifying "gays" - for me to answer Mark's question.

Disclaimer: The below descriptions apply to me and only me. Every straight is different, so naturally, every lgbtq-identified individual is different as well.

"What I am and what I'm not"

I am
a) Emotionally attracted to males - just like how straights fall in love with females, I fall in love with males

b) Sexually attracted to males - just like how straights get "aroused" by females, I get aroused by males.

I am not
a) Someone who convinced myself that I am gay out of rebellion - honestly why would someone do that? why would I subject myself to persecution in my home country and have no choice but to migrate 100,000 miles away, distant from family and friends, just so I could get married and be myself? Why would I want my parents to go through such heartache? (Don't worry mom and dad, I'd marry a guy with a sense of filial piety) Why would I want to go through all these obstacles by "convincing myself"?

b)"I hate my penis and I want it cut off" - This is the issue of gender identity. And I personally identify as a male. Though I see no reason for society to persecute anybody based on gender identity - even if it's "pencil". Love and let love...

c) "I have to have sex every day" - I am sorry to disappoint some of you, the media lied, not all gays have vibrant sex lives. And there are a lot of gays who prefer not to fornicate.

d)a defined "male" role or a "female" role in a relationship - This is pretty amusing to me actually. I don't understand why a lot of people believe that there HAS to be a "male" and a "female" in a same-sex relationship.

e)"Eww, I hate girls" - my two extremely close female friends are females, and I love them very much.

Oh and to also answer to one of Mark's question, my sexual attraction to guys was discovered by my mom when I was around 10 I think when I innocently told her that I like to see Olympic male swimmers in Speedos. I think I only found out the meaning of the term "gay" at the age of 13 through the internet.

And most of the times LGBTQ-identified individuals are more boring and normal than you can ever expect. For those who know me, I am still the same annoying brat, it's just that I would end up marrying someone of the same gender in future.

Once again, I am REALLY sorry Jon... notify me if you no longer wish to have these comments on your blog.

mark teen said...

Okay, you are overly descriptive about your sexuality. I should say sorry to Jon too if I asked the wrong questions, hence you giving those answers.

Yeah, I'm going to IMU. Thanks for the well wishes. =) I have no idea what are you doing. You're in University of Toronto right, but what course? Anyway, I should catch up with you some time and not use Jon's comment thread to chat. You don't MSN anymore right? Leave me a message on Facebook or something.

I guess I have nothing much to say, so I shouldn't turn this into a discussion forum any further

jonmah said...

Alrighty, last words here, unless anyone really really needs to have their say.

Obviously, a discussion on what has been said, or what has not been said in the post and in the comments section here is far too lengthy a debate for a comment page like my own.

However, I would like to say something. Much like what has been said above, I too believe that everyone has their own convictions on what is right or what is wrong. For the Christians, we have the Bible, but where it isn't clear about what goes and what does not, then its really up to your personal conviction.

But for anyone struggling with the issues of religion and sexuality, I'd encourage you to read up alot on the views of both parties, perhaps talk to peers, then to make an informed decision. At that point, I don't think anyone else will be able to do it for you.

Jonathan.

jonmah said...

alright! thread locked. :)

Any further questions feel free to mail that guy, me or ask Google.

-Jon the moderator.

Commenter said...

Is it really locked?

Commenter said...

Well, since I received no reply, and since I double anyone will read this, I just wanted to share my thoughts. I like you, Jon, am a Christian. I truely, strongly believe that the Bible looks disapprovingly upon homosexuality and would never condone it.
However, I do believe that as Christians, while we are entitled to our views, they should stay within a religous and personal sphere. In no way should we impose a law on others based on our own religous beliefs. For example, we agree the Shariah law should not be imposed upon us Christians, do we not? Do you know Malaysian law currently prohibits oral sex because it falls under "unnatural sexual behaviour?" You see, Muslims may truly believe that there is nothing natural about oral sex- they are entitled to their own opinions and practices. But I believe they are not entitled to impose those views through law on others.
To me, there isn't much difference with homosexuals and Christians as with oral sex and Muslims. The state has the right to protect the infringement of rights of individuals by another party- the reason why murder, rape, abortion, wife beating etc are against the law. The state also has a right to put limits on teh behavious or minors as at that age they are deemed has not having attained enough amturity to fully realise the implications of their behavious- hence the ban on smoking and drinking. However, as adults, we do have autonomous rights- the right to make our own choices if they do not infringe on the rights of others. The state has no right to be overly paternalistic in that area- they must be objective in separating that area. If not, a host of grey areas are open for the state to interfere in- there isn't much difference in gay sex to oral sex to sex before marriage (of course, with a consenting adult partner). If the state interprets all these things as "morally wrong" or "unnatural", then it has the right to outlaw and punish all individuals who commit such "offences." If you do not agree with the state imprisoning a man who has sex with his soon-to-be-wife, theoretically, the same thing applies to a man having intercourse with another man.
On the point of incest, I think it's abominable. However, being liberal in my thoughts, I also believe that the same thing applies here. We know in society, incest does occur already. If we acknowledge this reality, we can ensure that those currently involved in it can obtain those things everyone else can get – counselling for their relationship, for example. The whole case against incest is based on application of biblical rules that have little to do with today’s society. Today’s society is, or should be a progressive and inclusive place, one in which individuals are free to determine the course of their own lives in the light of their own moral framework. Many people might disagree with what you want, for example. But because the majority of society disagrees with it does not strip you of your right to be entitled to pursue it. Of course in this case, I refer only to consenting individuals above the adult age. If such a law were passed, reproduction rights might have to be taken away from tehm however to avoid children with birth defects, should there be sufficient scientific research to prove so.

Yi Siang (Bryan) said...

Commenter,

Very interesting thoughts. And if more in the world were like you, I wouldn't have to escape to canada.

Just one amusing point though.. "Stripped of reproductive rights?" lol.. Babies with birth defects deserve to see the world too...That is if their parents are willing to go through the heartache.

Yi Siang (Bryan)

Commenter said...

Yi Siang,
Hello. :)

Well, technically I agree "babies with birth defects deserve to see the world too" therefore any conceived embryo with birth defects should not be aborted. But if we strip reproductive rights i.e. encourage them to use a sperm donor/ adoption, then no child with birth defects would be conceived in the first place. My only concern is that a third party suffer because of the problem- isn't it unfair if a child is born and raised handicapped due to a decision entirely not his own? If such a thing could be plausibly avoided beforehand, aren't we protecting the rights of a child?

At any rate, there are some flaw in that argument as well as it brings in questions like whether mothers with HIV or carrying the haemophilia gene should be allowed to conceive children. All very grey areas. Basically, I am very much in favour of allowing individuals to exercise their own rights but am wary of allowing their decision to affect others- i.e. their child.

Cheers!

Yi Siang (Bryan) said...

Hmph.. I see that we are going into the topic of abortion...

A part of me says that parents should have the rights to abort. No 14 year old should be "righteously" burdened with something that will potentially change her life in a way that she does not want to. No poor should be forced to give birth to a baby she cannot feed.

But then again, it is only through struggles that we shall rise.

Back to your comments on "a child is raised and born handicapped due to a decision that is not his/her own"

What about females? They are born into this world/certain parts of this world, with a preset disadvantage. What about gays?! or any lgbtq-identified individual.

Perhaps only through struggles we shall grow. And perhaps God is there to only help us go through them, not remove them from us.